The Garden of Eden on Lost Island
Saturday January 6, 2007
Matt Harrison shares his Lost theory. "The island is the Garden of Eden. Paradise. Straight out of the bible. The place where man is tempted by good and evil, where freewill and destiny is put to the test."
Matt provides some proof behind his theory in the article: The Garden of Eden Theory. Feel free to comment on Matt's theory in the comments section below.
Other Lost Theories
Comments
Very interesting theories. And they make a lot of sense. Keep us posted if you come up with any more.
I think it sounds very plausible. As you know, we think that the Others are the first set of ‘test people’ that were placed on the island. By this point, they have been more or less ‘accepted’ by the island and are allowed to be on it, though they too are unable to visit the centre of the island. We know this because of the black light that flashes the map with the big question mark in the middle of the island – the Others also don’t know what is located there.
Another theory is that the castaways are in Purgatory. Their actions on the island will determine where they go once they have “moved on”. If that sounds plausible, the Smoke monster can determine who goes where, too.
Just a thought.
Purgatory is a very popular theory, but the creators have flat out said that they are not in purgatory.
Yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing. If you have ever read “Lord of the Flies” by William Golding there are many similarities to the show. The characters are on a island with a beast and wild boars. The book is allegorical and has many conections to the bible. I always wonderered if there was some type of connection!
Hey Matthew, this is your sister! Good theory, best I have heard so far
Really really interesting…our society permeates with biblical references so why not in Lost? Makes a lot of sense.
And there are a lot of other biblical references in Lost, too.
I was JUST talking with my friends and I said “You know what?? I BET the island is the garden of Eden,” and listed some of the same evidence as this theory. I then came on the internet and found I was not alone! Definitely the theory I’ll stick by to the end.
Eko built the church because he owed his brother a church.
Alicia commented that the others dont know what the question mark is… but the others didnt make the map. innman (is that his name? desmonds previous button pusher) and his co- button pusher drew the map on the blast door, they didnt interact with “the others”, they just pushed the button, and theorised the whereabouts of other installations on the island and recorded there findings on an invisible map using (i think) washing-machine liquid only visible under UV light…
am i right in recalling that the creators of lost have said there are TWO factions of the others?
i think the two factions are
1. bens people
2. the whispers in the jungle
innman referred to “the hostiles”
wonder who he meant?
I have another one for you. I started thinking about this theory a while back, Matthew. I started thinking about it because I noticed that several times just before we hear the monster come, you can hear the flapping of wings, a lot of wings. I remember L’Engle’s book, “A Wind in the Door” in which one of the non-human characters insists on being called cherubim and is described as having a multitude of wings and eyes. Sawyer is reading the prequel to “Wind” in Deus Ex Machina. It’s out there, I know, but Lost’s writers are clearly aware of her work, and quite possibly her description of this biblical creature.
Oh, I haven’t heard that one yet. I like it! It makes a lot of sense, really. I’m going to listen for the wings now.
It is not stupid. The theory of the center
of the garden… In episode 3*05. The Cost of living, Eko
meets his brother not far away from the question mark,to be forgiven for his
sins…You can see him walking in front
of a very huge tree. It may be the
Temptation tree!!
Today is March 22, Just watched episode: “The Man from Tallahasee”…
In that episode, there were a number of things BEN had said to John (Lock) that made me wonder about the it being the garden of eden.. Just like Matt’s theory. Some of the things I noticed in this episode:
Ben mentions to John: Imagine a box on the island where anything you could need/want/desired was created for you. (summary not quote)
Sounds like a good explanation…
Ben also said that they all wanted to be there, just some haven’t decided to make the commitment. Sorta like a religious group/cult that might center around the G-of-E if found…
In the episode that Kate & Sawyer escape Ben’s group, they find Alex’s boyfriend in the “RAVE ROOM” (our office name for the clock-work-orange type experience he was haveing…) and in it, there was references to bible verses, but I forgot what ones… More evidence that it is kinda a religious based group…
Also in the Tallahasee episode, Ben mentioned to John about he accepted it, and has embraced the island… We all know about John and his quest for his faith. The fact that he is healed and Ben is not, may be a direct result of that faith. If you remember NewTestiment scriptures, Jesus heals the lame man who is lowered from the roof when he tells him that he must have FAITH and that he would be healed… More religious biblical references…
And Yes, the black smoke as a God’s guardian, etc..
The Russian at the communications post (forgot name) that John Killed… He mentioned that BEN was really nothing and that their true leader was wonderious and could do miraculas things. (Sounds like a good dovoted man of God to me…)
And Also in “Tallahassee” Locks Dad supposedly just came from the “BOX” on the island… Maybe again, someone needs to make peace…
Lots of intersting things, and I thought I was a first on the Garden of Eden theory, but I guess I’m not.. But, it was the first one that I liked that actually fit a lot better than all the others (Gameshow, purgatory, etc..etc..)
Yes, I still really like this theory!
Enkidu was not a god. Your facts on that part are completely wrong. You need to rewwrite that part after some research.
I came up with this theory after April 5th, 2007 episode and got on the computer to see if anyone else had this theory. I was so happy to see such an depth well researched breakdown. Things I had not even thought about or known. I think this is absolutely it. I do think that maybe Locke unknowingly has had contact with The Tree. How I don’t know.
What does anybody think about the Smoke being the Serpent? And does anybody have a good theory on what all of the Numbers mean in relation to the Garden of Eden?
I’ve seen a more elaborate and I think accurate explanation of Lost as The Garden of Eden that’s well worth reading
http://spaceramblings.blogsome.com/2007/04/19/the-mystery-of-lost-solved/
I think I have seen a better worked out theory of Lost as the Garden of Eden here
http://spaceramblings.blogsome.com/2007/04/19/the-mystery-of-lost-solved/
Very good idea, I like it. Especially the bit about the angel guarding the Garden. Lostpedia has some more, including a potential explanation for the numbers:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Garden_of_Eden_(Theory)
I still don’t get the polar bear.
Excellent theory and just to add something from Genesis that might but might not have anything to do with the issues of pregnancy on the island:
Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
Fascinating. I enjoyed your theories. Thanks for sharing.
I think Walt is the key to this some of this. His story in the first season depicts how is he has special abilities or powers – none of which were ever fully explained. One episode shows (to me) how powerful his imagination / powers are when he reads a French comic book about depicting polar bears on the front cover… then, what happens, but polar bears show up in the forest and the french woman who is looking for her daughter, Alex, shows up. He is the one the ‘others’ really wanted, and he was the first to ‘leave the island’. He also appeared ‘wet’ in various forms when he was ‘kidnapped’ by the ‘others’ to Shannon. Not to mention that Shannon was only shot dead AFTER she was chasing an image of Walt. I’m not saying its all connected to him, but if there was a creater – the kid could well be it!
Bingo! I think the island is indeed the Garden of Eden. It all connects. Think Spielberg will be upset that the writers stole his Indiana Jones IV idea?
maybe you already thought of this, but locke seems to not be able to die because of his communion with the island. and he stood up to the black smoke, which disappeared when they were face to face. this theory is AMAZING.
I totally agree. I started watching Season 2 and by the beginning of Season 3 I had that theory. Now I am more convinced than ever after these last few revealing episodes. Good for you putting out there early on!
veryy interesting, plus the “others” always said they are good people and are looking for ‘good’ people
Waaaaayyyy too much emphasis on the Judeo-Christian mythology here folks. The Garden Of Eden theory is interesting but quoting the Bible doesn’t make it true. On the other hand, given that the Bible is predominantly a work of fiction you could be right…..Why not just wait and see what happens in the series instead of projecting your personal belief systems onto the plotlines? Yes there are elements of religious themes but they’re not exclusively Christian or Bible-related. Blind faith is the death of the intellect.
The ‘black smoke’/security system is unlikely to be anything to do with the flaming sword or seraphim. The idea that the smoke takes the form of a sword is ridiculous though.
An interesting theory but it’s spoiled by it’s emphasis on the Christian perspective. Perhaps try researching outside of your own religion for a better worldview.
^^^^^^^
Sorry dude (imagine Hurley) but the Garden of Eden sounds like the best theory so far, same as you I dont believe in the bible as more than history book but I can understand that the MAYORITY of the part of the world who is watching Lost DO believe in the bible, the show at the end of the day is meant for that MAJORITY of the world, and it seems like a theory that would sit flat on their asses to that public that the show is directed to.
Doesnt mean that other religions and believes are wrong, again LOST is a show and has to market to the MAJORITY of the viewers, even if YOU or I do not believe in the bible as a sacred book, the majority of the world does; this seems like a perfect theory to explain it all
I know that the show is obviously aimed at that MAJORITY you’re talking about but that doesn’t automatically mean that it’s about the Garden Of Eden. Yes, the theory is plausible and appeals to the more religiously minded of us but I believe it’s highly unlikely that it’s actually what’s going to happen.
It wouldn’t be much of a show if the writers turned round at the end and said “Hey, guess what? They’re all in the Garden Of Eden. The End.” It’d a total cop-out and show a complete lack of imagination from what was/is a very imaginative show. It SOUNDS like a good theory and SOUNDS like it could work BUT until we see what actually happens (or possibly steal the scripts..lol) it remains a theory.
Geeze # 30 alotta hostility.
Sorry #28, here’s my G of E theory. Ben intially says he’s the first born on the island, a type of Adam. Actually he’s reborn, like Lucifer in the Garden is reborn as the Serpent. He meets John who he admits has a special connection to the island, is Ben jealous? He tempts John to murder his father, like the Serpent tempted Eve into rebellion against the Father. Ben is cunning (Gen.3:1) like Lucifer he doesn’t force his will on others, he manipulates, preying upon their own weaknesses. When desperate Ben makes fantastic promises like the magic box, or Eve to knowledge. He speaks in half truths. Then there’s Oceania 8:13, Gen 8:13, Noah’s first glimpse of the new world after the flood, like the survivors of flight 813 first glimpse of the island, or new earth: Eden. Maybe that’s why in the season finale, Jack regrets leaving the island. Like Noah he had a chance at a new beginning and blew it.
i was thinking the same thing…and also, remember the Bible speaks of Cain and that no one could kill Cain? What do you guys think?
I rarely post on forums however I occasionally come across statements which are, in my opinion, so ridiculous and pretentious that I cannot help but to respond. WastedDayMusic has brilliantly succeeded in demonstrating both the ignorance and pretension which only “true” political correctness can bring to the table.
“The Garden Of Eden theory is interesting but quoting the Bible doesn’t make it true.” I do not believe the author of this article was asserting anything of the sort. When one forms a theory they usually use evidence to back it up. If the theory is that the island is the garden of eden and there are direct quotes from the Bible which substantiate this claim then it is quite logical to use the Bible to support the claim. Obviously quoting the Bible doesn’t make the claim true. It DOES however support the claim and pose an argument which is the point of formulating a theory in the first place. No one’s projecting their personal belief systems onto the plot line. That statement’s absolutely ridiculous and reeks of a predisposed bias. The author’s merely taking information and forming it into a theory which is actually well thought out and supported. Just because the author uses evidence from a “religious” document doesn’t mean he is cramming the Lost plot line into his own personal world view. “An interesting theory but it’s spoiled by it’s emphasis on the Christian perspective. Perhaps try researching outside of your own religion for a better worldview.” You’re presupposing that the author is Christian. How is the theory spoiled by its emphasis on Christian perspective if there is enough evidence in the first place to support the theory? And the author isn’t asserting that Lost doesn’t draw from other religions or belief systems he is merely arguing that they draw extensively (which they do) from Judeo-Christian tradition. Finally, in no way does one have to be “religiously minded” for the garden of Eden theory to appeal to them. I don’t have to agree with John Locke’s positions as a philosopher to enjoy Lost’s portrayal of the fictional John Lock character and appreciate how they draw from themes concerning Locke’s view of the state of nature. It would also be moronic for anyone to assert that because I argue that the show draws from Locke’s philosophy that I am therefore shoving my world view onto everyone else. Whether you like or not, or are religious or not, Christianity is a major and influential part of the tradition of Western Civilization and modern entertainment will continue to draw on such a tradition as it well should. Otherwise we would be denied such great works as Milton’s Paradise Lost or Faust. Just because a show draws on religious tradition or someone poses a theory which draws on religious tradition does not make the show or the theory “spoiled” because of its emphasis.
Hi,
I found this in a search because it was one of my theories,
actually my latest one.
Some things still leave me wondering, like why only four toes on the statue,
and what’s with Jacob, and why does he need anyone’s help at all?
Many more Qs, but I don’t claim to be correct. just started Googling about it.
I think this is a great theory. Maybe because I told my husband last night that I had the same one!
Anyone who thinks that religion and entertainment don’t mix should remember that the Left Behind Series of Books are a huge success, as was the Passion of the Christ. The Passion of the Christ was release in February 2004, and Lost was said to begin development in January 2004. Isn’t it possible that Hollywood, as always, just replays old ideas?
I disagree with the part about the giants–only insofar as the giants that were mentioned in this theory were only being representative of men of great renown. If we are talking literal Bible translations, the latest Dead Sea Scrolls transcription discuss the “Watchers”; angels who were sent here apparently to watch over the earth, but who became involved with man and brought destruction with them. The Watchers who mated with the daughters of men supposedly created the giants.
“That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.”; “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them…” (Genesis 6:2 and 6:4.
The Book of Enoch discusses the Giants, and their virtual destruction. It is of interest, however, that the Watchers gave special knowledge or “secret things” to their sons. (Enoch 10:7). The giants were said to consume “all the acquisitions of men. Eventually, the giants turned against men and devoured them, too. It says they began to sin against birds, and beast, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another’s flesh, and drink the blood.” (Enoch 7: 3-5) Finally, the Lord destroys the giants, but the souls and spirits of the giants go forth and are on earth as demons. (Enoch 16:1)
Anyway, how this might play into the whole Garden of Eden theory is tantalizing. I think this theory makes more sense than anything else that’s been offered.
I wanted to say in my last post that I realize this image of giants is kind of startling–especially to those who don’t believe in the Bible. I don’t believe in Vampires, but there was a time that I enjoyed Buffy. People don’t have to believe in something to find it entertaining. Seen any real Hobbits lately?
It simply seems to me that filmmakers and T.V. producers always capitalize on the most fantastic and dramatic elements of the Bible narrative when looking for ideas. The Garden of Eden (with Giants, no less) certainly makes for the dramatic, does it not? It really does have everything you could want in a storyline.
I forgot to say that the leather collar for the polar bear shows the emblem that looks like the Tree of Life. I realize that nothing is supposed to be as it seems on this crazy show, but they can’t make everything so obtuse that it makes no sense, either.
Maybe the people going to heaven go through the monster?
God would never allow fornication n the Garden of Eden and that is why he threw Adam and Eve out. This would explain the deaths of the women and unborn children. Adam and Eve had to leave to have their baby So did Sun Kwon
your theroy doesn’t hold up to the archaeological or historical record. you need to read more. here, try this….
Above is a map of an area known in our present day as Iraq. (most Americans are very familiar with this area of the globe). This map was found on the enternet from the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. It has a listing of many historical sites as well as some modern cities(refer to key on map). Some of you may wonder why I would post this map in referance to ancient hebrew peoples. The answer can be found in the Torah. In the book of Genesis, as Hebrew, Christian, and most Islamic childrean can tell you, there is the story of creation. After Adam was created, God made a home for him in a wonderful garden paradise known to us as Eden. I will qoute:
8 And the LORD God planted a garden
eastward, in Eden; and there He put the
man whom He had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD
God to grow every tree that is pleasant to
the sight, and good for food; the tree of life
also in the midst of the garden, and the tree
of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water
the garden; and from thence it was parted,
and became four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pishon; that is it
which encompassed the whole land of
DHavilah, where there is gold;
12 and the gold of that land is good; there is
bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is
GiDhon; the same is it that encompasseth the
whole land of Kush.
14 And the name of the third river is Tigris;
that is it which goeth toward the east of
Asshur. And the fourth river is the
Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and
put him into the garden of Eden to dress it
and to keep it.
Now, there are a bunch of names in here. But two that should catch your attention would be Tigris and Euphrates. This area was called “the cradle of civilization” when I was in school, and is home to some of the oldest settlements in human history. It would seem obvious to anyone that according to the Old Testament, the beginning of Hebrew history begins here. Some of the names listed above, however, are not as familiar. This is where things can get complicated. The land of Kush is known to be in Africa south of Egypt, and for a lot of people interested in this topic, it would indicate that Eden was very large area of land. Also, some people believe that the great flood may have deposited miles of sediment over what we call the “Fertile Crescent”, making geographic identification of Eden impossible today. Below is an interesting article I have copied from Bryant Wood of Bible and Spade.
“The Bible says regarding the location of Eden:
“And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.”
-Genesis 2:10
Two of these rivers are called Hiddekel (Tigris) and Perath (Euphrates).
This is why many Christians have assumed that the original garden was located somewhere in the Mesopotamian region (around present day Iraq) where the modern Tigris and Euphrates rivers flow.
However, the Bible records a devastating worldwide Flood, many centuries after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden. Sedimentary layers sometimes miles thick, bear mute testimony to this massive watery upheaval which tore apart and buried forever the pre-Flood world.
After the Flood, the survivors (Noah’s family) moved to the plain of Shinar (Sumeria/Babylonia) which is where we find rivers today called Tigris and Euphrates. These are therefore clearly not the same rivers. They run on top of Flood-deposited layers of rock containing billions of dead things (killed by the Flood). These rivers were probably named after the original pre-Flood rivers, just as settlers from the British Isles to America and Australasia applied familiar names to many places in their “new world.”
Note also, that the Bible speaks of one river breaking into four, only two of which were called Tigris and Euphrates. This is not what is found in the Middle East today.
The Garden was destroyed by the Flood. Its actual location on the globe can never be established
– for all we know it was where we now find the middle of the Pacific Ocean!”
I respect this man a lot, but, the geographic record of the flood is questionable at best. There is another opinion which I like better. Take a look at this. It was written by a man named Emilio Spedicato from the University of Bergamo. Apparently, Emilio and his colleges have given this a lot of thought.
“we have analyzed the geographical data in Genesis about the Garden of Eden ( GAN in Hebrew, paradeisos in the Septuaginta Greek version of the 3rd century BC, a word of Persian origin meaning “walled garden”). Such data are the following:
• the information that four rivers originate from the same geographical location; here we argued that the usual translation a river dividing into four rivers is wrong, in addition of being geographically virtually impossible, nahar having not only the meaning “river” but also that of “snow field”
• the names of the four rivers: Hindekel, Gihon, Pishon, PRT ( PRT is usually translated as Euphrates, but we related PRT to perath= fertility, pirot=fruit, parot=cows, hence PRT would be the river of food bearing country)
• the information that Hindekel flew eastwards of “Ashur”
• the information that Gihon bordered the land of Kush
• the information that Pishon bordered the land of Havilah, rich in gold, onyx (?) and bdellium (usually assumed to be an aromatic substance; but in [2] we suggest the meaning “asbestos”)
• the information that PRT watered the Garden of Eden, located in the eastern part of Eden
• the information that the Garden of Eden had an eastern access ( a “gate”), wherefrom Adam and Eve were expelled; the gate was defended by a Cherubim (KRB) branding a fiery sword.
Our thesis in [1,2] was that a location does indeed exist on earth where all the above geographical details are satisfied. Such a location seems to have escaped attention of all previous people involved with the problem of the geography of Eden (albeit we suspect that our proposed location may have been known to the Ismaelites or to the Druses and be part of their still amply secret doctrine). In [2] we have therefore criticized some serious attempts, e.g. by Rohl [9] and by Salibi [10], to locate the Garden of Eden elsewhere (respectively in eastern Anatolia or in south-western Arabia).
Our interpretation of the Genesis geographical data is as follows:
• Eden consists of the very special mountaineous region of central Asia where four great rivers spring out of the huge massif that separates the Hunza valley in north Pakistan from the Wakhan valley of the eastern Afghanistan province of Badakshan. This is also the region where four mighty mountain ranges join, namely the Karakorum from SE, the Hindukush from SW, the Pamir-Tienshan from NW, the Kunlun from NE. The precise borders of Eden are undefinable, but the fact that the Garden is said to lie in the eastern part suggests that several regions, consisting of fluvial valleys, made up Eden. This consideration will be reinforced by the analysis of the Sumerian texts presented in this paper. We think that Eden comprised at least the Hunza Valley ( the Garden, GAN), the upper Gihon valley, i.e. the Badakshan (location of the only known mine of lapislazuli in ancient times, the Blue Mountain; and probably of the antediluvian city of Bad Tibira), and the upper valley of the Mintaka-Tashkurgan river, the present Karakol, down at least to the city of Tashkurgan (the city of “Ashur” as we argued).
• The four rivers are all mighty rivers (lengths in the range 500 to 2500 km), with their sources a few km or at most a few dozen km one from the other. They are born in the massif that separates the Hunza valley from the Badakshan, with peaks cuminating in the Hunza Kunji, at 7785 (we will give our interpretation of the meaning of this name and its special identification in the Enochian geography of “paradise”). Such four rivers are identified by us as the following rivers in their modern names:
• the Hindekel with the river born as Mintaka and ending as Tarim in the sands below sea level of the Lop Nor desert; about 2500 km length
• the Gihon with the river presently named Pandji for the part of its course amid mountains, as Amu Darya for the part in the Turanian plane, ending up in the Aral Sea, some 2500 km long; we noted that the biblical name Gihon was used instead of Pandji until the 19th century
• the Pishon with the river now variously named as Mastuj, Yarkhand, Konar, Kabul, joining the Indus after Peshawar, some 1000 km long. We suspect that this river in the past did not join the Indus, changing mid course a SW direction brusquely into an eastern direction, but it continued in the SW direction where we now find the Helmand river, ending up in the Hamun lake. The “creation” event took place before the Flood and the later catastrophic event referred to in the Bible as the “breaking of the earth” at Peleg’s time. Both events may have resulted in quite a substantial rearrangement of the orography and of the course of rivers. Substantial modifications of a river course after relatively minor natural events or possibly moderate action by man are known to have occurred in recent times. One example is the change of the mouth of the Yellow River, which in the last millennium shifted north to south and then back to north of the Shantung peninsula, as a result of heavy floods. Another is the rearrangement of the course of the San Francisco in Brasil, see de Mahieu [22], that used to flow in a straight northern direction, where we now find the Piaui river, the eastern turn in Remano being possibly due to artificial work to drain via some rapids some large marshes in precolombian times (de Mahieu thesis is that the Templars used that waterway to import silver from the Tiahuanaco region)
• the PRT (Perath, Parot, Parot…) or “river of food/fertility”, which flows through the Garden of Eden in the eastern part of Eden, is identified with the Hunza river. This river has a source just a few km from sources of the Mintaka and the Pandji (which one is the source of a river is an ill defined problem: the criterion of the maximum distance to the sea was almost impossible to apply in ancient times when accurate mapping was not available, and moreover is subject to changes due to landfalls and other geological effects; “religious” criteria, like the one defining the sources of the Ganges, are usually more significant from the point of view of the meaning of the river to man, but are generally inconsistent with the maximum length criterion). The Hunza river flows through the Hunza valley, a very special region for agricultural and anthropological considerations, for some 200 km, then continues through a deep and narrow valley for again some 100 km to Gilgit. Transit from Gilgit to Hunza valley used to require, even in the 20th century, after the road improvements made by the British but before the construction of the modern Karakorum highway, about two weeks, using mules or horses. After Gilgit the rivers continues through the Kashmir till it joins the Indus, after a course of some 500 km.
The other geographical details are identified as follows:
• the city of Ashur is the “city of Asia”, probably a city in the Karakol (”the black lake”), possibly the strategically located city now called Tashkurgan, meaning rather clearly the gate (tash) to the mountains (kur) of the Garden of Eden (gan). The “Asia” may be related to both the transoxiana land of the “Asioi” referred to by classical geographers, as Pomponius Mela, or to the kingdom of the Azha, very important in the ancient history of Tibet, see Hummel [11]
• the land of Kush corresponds to present Hindukush, the word kush to be related either to the Sanskrit ku =peak (which is the standard academic interpretation) or to the Persian kushtan = to kill, which we prefer since it nicely relates to the story of Cain and Abel
• the land of Havilah is the present region of Kabul (called once Kabulistan, see De Claustre [12]), Havilah meaning possibly land of Abel; notice also that Kabul, believed by its inhabitants to be the oldest city in the world, possibly means soul of Abel (in [21] we gave arguments that ka is a word with worldwide meaning as soul, person, people we can add that it means precisely soul in nahuatl, see de Mahieu [22])
• the eastern gate is identified with the north-east access to the Hunza valley, namely the Khunjerab pass, a name actually providing in the consonantic structure the Genesis information (Cherubim = KRB = JRB, Khun may be related with the ancient Turkish-Uighur word khun, meaning shining divine Sun).”
Here lies the real danger of any study based on these ancient stories. Both men are experts in their field. Both men I respect. Which one is correct? I think they both are in different degrees. The reason why this is important is two-fold. Firstly, nothing in the ancient scriptures can be taken at face value, the stories are full of reliable leads to archaeological fact, but also a lot of fable. The Torah and other scriptures are ancient men describing what they have seen and what they have been told, to the best of their ability, in a world with a lot of unanswerable questions. Only foolish men accept them as they are.
“We don’t take mythology at face value, nor do we follow maps to buried treasure and never does X mark the spot!”
Secondly, this demonstrates that two experts can have different opinions about the same subject and neither are really wrong. A lesson for the thick-headed fanatics of every faith, everywhere.
Anyway, it looks like the ancient Hebrew people began somewhere in this general area. Let’s read a little further from the copied text above. You will notice the reference to the Kush region which I mentioned earlier . According to Emilio Spedicato, Kush in this reference is not in Africa at all. All of a sudden the area of Eden looks a lot smaller now. And there is a lot more. He mentions some Sumerian texts that I remember reading about years ago in a book written by a man named Malcolm Godwin called “Angels : An Endangered Species”. These Sumerian texts are fascinating. Take a look.
“We have looked at several Sumerian-Akkadian sources on the “creation” event and its location, including the following ones:
• The so called “cylinder of Nippur”, discovered in Nippur (about 80 km SE of Babylon) by American archaeologists at the beginning of the 20th century. The cylinder, whose surface is partly ruined (out of 320 lines only 170 can be read) has been dated at the first half of the third millennium BC, possibly the 27th century BC. A first tentative translation was given in 1918 by professor George A. Barton [14]. Due to unresolved difficulties in making sense of such text, it has been left out of later collections of texts on the origins, like those by Kramer [15], Bottero and Kramer [16], later referred to as B&K, and Pettinato [17]. For this work we have used the revised version of Barton’s translation proposed by C. O’ Brien [18] and by C. and B. O’ Brien [19], this last one later referred to as B&B. C. O’ Brien was a geologist, author of important monographs on the orogenesis of the Zagros and the Rocky Mountains. Having become fascinated with the ancient Middle East history during the many years he spent in Iran and Mesopotamia, he devoted much of his time (most of the last 40 years of his long life) to the study of Hebrew, Akkadian and Sumerian. Working with his wife, he was able to provide new translations of several problematic texts (including Genesis and the Phaistos disk), developing a new theory on the identity of the “gods” in ancient religions and traditions.
• The Enuma Elish (when over there…), or Epic of Creation, in the translation of B&K. First published by Smith [20] in 1875, this initially incomplete text was in time integrated by several findings in different places; an almost complete text is given in B&K. It is believed that the present form of the epics was written in the 12th century BC.
• The Atrahasis (The great wise man), which is a fundamental text also for the discussion of the Flood and of another catastrophe, before the Flood, involving a great epidemics. This poem may be dated in the present version at least to the 17th century BC.
• The so called Bilingual Story of human creation, see B&K section 39, dated at least to the 12th century BC.
• Nergal and Ereshkigal, a story of relations and travels between the region of the gods and the underworld. The story has come to us in two versions, one usually dated at the paleo-babylonian time, circa the 18th century, the second one coming from a private library in Sultan Tepe has been dated at the 8th century BC.
Except for the cylinder of Nippur, we have used the translations in B&K.
The Sumerian story of the creation is much more complex, structured and informative than the story in Genesis. Here it is not the place for a thorough comparison of the two stories. For the further discussion, here we state our working hypothesis that the ancient documents that we consider are based upon real events, whose memory has survived, albeit with transmission errors in the oral and written versions and in the choice of the words. We will strive to find the invariant and significant elements surviving in the texts. With the specific reference to the differences between Genesis and the Sumerian-Akkadian text, our opinion is that the two stories refer basically to the same event, but from the point of view of two distinct lines of transmission: the line of the descendents of Adam and Eve, who survived the Flood in the eastern Anatolia region of Urartu, and the line of the descendants of the prediluvian Sumerians, who before the Flood lived in cities in Central Asia (in another work [21] we have argued that the mount Nimush where Utnapishtim/Ziusudra survived should be identified with the Anye Machen massif, near the sources of the Yellow River). In other terms, it is our belief that Moses did not borrow the creation story from contacts with the Mesopotamian civilization. We think that this story was a common heritage of the descendants of Abraham, thus known not only by the Hebrews but also by the Madianites, where Moses spent many years (the Madianites were most probably descendants of Madian, son of Abraham and Keturah; Jethru, father in law of Moses, lived in Arabia near the city now called Medina, once called Yathrib, a city possibly founded by Madian).
The Sumerian creation story starts with the arrival in a certain place of a group of beings of “divine” nature, the Anunnaki (a word variously interpreted as the great sons of light, the great sons of Anu), with higher knowledge and technical skill than man. The region where they settle lies amid mountains and is called Kursag, also read Kharsag. In this word kur means “mountain”, sag according to B&K has no clear meaning, while according to O&O should mean lofty enclosure, close in meaning to the Genesis gan or paradise= walled enclosure.
The gods descending on Kharsag are a structured group, consisting, from Enuma Elish, of 600 members of the lower Igigi group, of 50 “great gods” and of 7 high chiefs, the gods of destiny. The Igigi appear to be divided sometimes between 300 located at the “sky” and 300 at the “Apsu”. The chief of the Anunnaki in the “sky” region is Enlil, whose name means ” Lord of the sky” and also, according to O&O, ” Lord of cultivation”). The lord of the Apsu is Enki, whose name means lord of the lowland, and who is a brother of Enlil. A sister of Enlil, living in Kharsag, is Ninlin or Ninkarsag; she plays a fundamental role in the creation of ullu, the modern man. Finally we should quote the father of Enlil, Enki and Ninlin, namely the supreme chief of the gods, Anu. He lives far away “in the sky”, but appears at Kharsag on special occasions.
In Karsag the Anunnaki become involved in a special project, namely the attempt to make water easily available for agricultural purposes by building canals and in particular by damming a local river. This work is the task of the Igigi, who spend many years on it, without being able to complete it. Tired of a work that they find too heavy, the Igigi rebel against Enlil. To quash the rebellion, Enlil, Enki and Ninlil decide to “create” man, to help in the heavy work of water management and in the agricultural activities. Man is therefore created as a worker, to be compensated with the fruits of the soil. It is intriguing to observe here how, according to Pettinato [23], the signs of the zodiac were known by the Sumerians well before they appeared in the other western sources, all with the same name as today, except the first one: aries is a wrong translation, explained by a little difference in the cuneiform script, of the Sumerion words ullu hunga, meaning salaried man. While Pettinato puts the origin of this term at the beginning of an economy where people would be hired for a salary, one might possibly consider also the hypothesis of a reference to the ullu created in Kharsag, subject to work in change of free vegetarian meals … thus instead of Aries the first sign should be the sign of the first man.
The creation of man, decided by Enlil, is implemented with a complex process well different from the process described in Genesis (but see O&O for a radically different translation of Genesis than the one usually given). The “creation” is realized by a group of Anunnaki, under the direction of Ninlil and with the important help of Enki. The process involves using some vital material from one specially selected male Anunnaki, named Weila in the Atrahasis, Xingu in the Enuma Elish (VI,33), and results in the creation of seven couples. The specific details of the creation are called, in the Bilingual Text ) B&K, text 39), “a secret doctrine, that can be spoken only by experts”. A very important feature of the created man from a theological point of view and definitely going beyond anything stated in Genesis, is contained in the following three lines of Atrahasis, Karsap-Aya text, lines 215-217, B&K p. 571, our English version:
Thanks to the divine flesh ,
a spirit will be alive in man,
that will be alive even after his death.
In the Sumerian texts man continues to work with the gods for a substantial amount of time; no reference is made to a couple being expelled from Kharsag. Kharsag becomes apparently a settlement of model agriculture, with a dam and irrigation canals, various buildings including the palace of Enlil, the Ekur, breeding of animals (sheep, goat, cows) and rich orchards (quite curiously the Nippur cylinder, plate 4, claims that some “heavenly” fruit trees could not be cultivated successfully). The settlement thrives, disregarding some problems and fightings among the Anunnaki, for over a couple of thousand years. According to the Atrahasis a first crisis comes after less than 1200 years from “creation”, when an epidemics devastates the settlement. The second crisis comes again less than 1200 years after the epidemics, being the Flood to which Ziusudra-Utnapishtim are survivors. The interval between the creation and the Flood is thus given at circa 2300 years, which agrees very well with the estimate obtainable from the Septuaginta (the time when the first ten Patriarchs, from Adam to Noah, lived is circa 2600 years; since Noah outlived the Flood by about 300 years the estimates are close).
It is not here the place to comment in detail the creation story, see Appendix 2 for a brief discussion of possible interpretations.
We now look at the geographical information that can be gleaned from the Sumerian texts. We should point out that our investigation is by no means exhaustive.
• Kharsag is a settlement among the mountains, as its name says. The palace of Enlil is called Ekur, i.e. “palace of the mountains”. The place if often contrasted with the lowland controlled by Enki, the region of the Apsu, and with the region controlled by Ereshkigal, the underworld. Such geographical data agree with our identification of the Garden of Eden as the high Hunza valley, but of course would also agree with very many other mountain places.
• The lord of the Anunnaki is Enlil. He would correspond to Yahweh as lord of the Elohim, if we could consider the world elohim, which is definitely a plural, as referring to a plurality of higher beings, and so not be, as in the standard interpretation of the three main monotheistic religions, a “pluralis majestatis”. Now Enlil has another name, albeit less common, namely enzu, meaning Lord of knowledge, see O&O, p. 68. The phonetic analogy between Enzu and Hunza suggests that the present name Hunza, whose meaning as far as we know is unknown to anthropologists and to linguists, preserves the memory of the ancient god who according to the Sumerian texts presided there to the “creation” event. It is also a tradition of the Hunza people that they entered the valley only relatively recently from the west, i.e. from Badakshan (but Mandel conjectures that the tribes in the high Kashmir may be remnants of people from the Indus civilization, who fled the Arian invasion, see [41]). They also believe that some of their ancestors were Alexander the Great soldiers, quite a possibility since Alexander spent three years in Bactriana and Sogdiana, the regions of the Persian empire that gave the strongest resistance to his army. We may therefore surmise that the Hunza valley, which can be accessed with great difficulty from the south, remained empty of people for a long time after the Flood, but that the memory of its unique place in human history was preserved by the surrounding people, especially those living in the valleys more easily accessible via the Kilik, Mintaka and Khunjerab passes. Evidence of transit between Gilgit and the Khunjerab pass was amply obtained during the works of construction of the Karakorum highway, when thousand of petroglyphs showing human figures were found, the most ancient having been dated to the fourth millennium BC, see Uhlig [43]. The first evidence that the Hunza river valley constituted the southern branch of the silk road was obtained in 1942 by the great explorer Aurel Stein, then an octagenarian, who found petroglyphs he dated at the second millennium BC.
• Kharsag is a fertile land, but requires substantial and difficult work for irrigation and control of water. Such a work, in the epics, is so tiring that, initially in charge of the Igigi, it leads to their rebellion and hence to the decision to create man, ullu, as a worker. This scenario fits perfectly the Hunza valley. The Karakorum mountains have plenty of glaciers and snowfields, and there are reasons to believe that they were more extended several thousand years ago (the creation story may be set at circa 5500 BC on reasons that cannot be developed here; such estimate by the way already appears in a fragment of Julius Africanus Chronography, preserved by the 8th century Byzantine writer Georgius Syncellus; Africanus also gives 2262 years from Adam to the Flood, in excellent agreement with the estimate from Atrahasis). However the bottom valleys are usually very dry, the monsoons (we are close to their northern limit) discharging mainly on the high mountains. Due to this lack of rain the Hunza people have built a complex system of canals, called “kuls”, of several km length, depth and widths about one meter, crossing rocky obstacles via tunnels. Perhaps more importantly the Hunza river flows in a deeply excavated bed, in some places over two hundred meters deep. The river effectively divides the Hunza valley into two separate regions, inhabited by different tribes speaking different dialects, having different characters and adhering to different professions of Islam (one sunni, the other ismaelite). The great and difficult work of the Igigi before their rebellion makes much sense in this context, as a project to dam the Hunza river in the eastern part of the valley to provide easier access to water for irrigation. One may surmise that if any archaeological evidence will ever come of Eden in Hunza, it will be in the form of traces of the dam built along the river (albeit there is the strong possibility that nothing was left after the Flood). Finally, a line in Atrahasis, I/25, suggests that canalization work was not limited to the Hunza valley, but also was done along the Mintaka river (referred as Tigris), hence in the Karakol. This statement suggests that the expansion from Kharsag/Hunza was in the northern direction, leading, via the valley of the Mintaka, to the great basin of the Takla Makan and Lop Nor that, as we will now argue, was at that time filled with water and constituted the Apsu.
We will discuss later from the Enoch texts geographical evidence pointing to two great and special mountains that dominate the Hunza valley from both sides of the river. We will now look at other geographical features, associated with Kharsag but lying at some distance.
The main region associated with Kharsag and generally with the prediluvian world is the Apsu, under the control of Enki. Here are some of the features of the Apsu; additional ones could certainly be obtained by a fuller search of the Sumerian literature:
• the Apsu is characterized by being a basin of sweet water. We establish that its waters are sweet by its name (AP=AB=A= water in Persian, Sanskrit and Sumerian; SU = sweet, good, in Sanskrit) and by the explicit statement (lines 75-79 of poem 4 in B&K, Enki in Nippur) that carps lived in its waters
• the prediluvian city of Eridu was built on the border of Apsu. This statement is intriguing because the excavated Eridu in Mesopotamia lies about 200 km from the sea line (it is believed that the sea line has not changed much since Sumerian times)
• the Apsu, where Enki settled, is also associated with the region of Dilmun/Tilmun, defined to be a place of “purity and light”, see poem 5, Enki and Ninhursag, in B&K. Dilmun is also stated to be located beyond the sea, where the sun rises. It is also the place where Ziusudra/Utnapishtim, the survivor of the Flood, settled, see poem 46 in B&K, based on a tablet found in Nippur.
The second geographical region associated with the Kharsag is the underworld, where the goddess Ereshkigal, sister of Enlil and Enki, is the lord. A visit to the underworld is described in the poem Nergal and Ereshkigal, n. 26 in B&K. Among the features of the underworld:
• it is dark, sunshine does not reach there
• one can go there, but to return is almost impossible
• it is connected with the “gate of Anu, Enlil and Ea (Enki)” by a “long stair of the sky”.
We give now an interpretation of the Apsu and the underwold that agrees very well with the geography of that part of Central Asia where the Hunza valley is located. First, we identify the Apsu with the huge inner sea that until a few thousand years ago filled the presently desertic depressions of Takla Makan and Lop Nor, the first a desert with great sandy dunes, the second a steppe type desert full of salty flats. It is a recent fundamental discovery based upon the analysis of satellites pictures, due to the Turkish geomorphologist Eroz Orgul, see Pittman and Ryan [24], that the said deserts were filled with water for a substantial depth until about the second millennium BC. The “creation” event being datable at the sixth millennium BC, we would then be in presence of a substantial water basin, of the order one million square km, in the very heart of Asia, surrounded by the Kunlun range in the south, by the Pamir-Tienshan in the west and north, by the Nanshan in the east. All these are mighty mountain ranges, reaching in many places over 6000 meters. Further we should notice:
• The waters, stated in the texts to be sweet, are expected to have been so, since they probably formed in the tenth millennium BC at the time of the rapid worldwide melting of glaciers, in this case of the glaciers over the Tibetan plateau and the surrounding great chain of mountains; the water produced by such melting had no outlet to the ocean and accumulated in the Takla Makan and Lop Nor basin. Additional water of celestial origin may have arrived later from planet Mars if the catastrophic scenarios developed by Velikovsky [3], De Grazia [4] and Ackerman [7,8] are correct. The main catastrophe after “creation” has been the Flood, that most probably implied some tsunamic invasion of continents by salty oceanic waters. The Takla Makan and Lop Nor basin are far inside the Asian continent and well protected by high mountain ranges against tsunamic event, a fact that suggests that the origin of the water of Apsu was mainly not oceanic (against for instance the origin of the waters of the Caspian sea). A limited amount of oceanic water may have reached there and contributed to the salt found in the flats of the Lop Nor.
• The basin surface, viewed from the surrounding high mountains, was very low, thousand meters below the mountain ridges, thereby giving to Apsu the additional meaning of “abyss” or “subterranean sea”.
• The basin, being located far from the oceans and being moreover surrounded by high mountains, was bound to be a dry area, where evaporation would greatly exceed the amount of water brought by rains. Thus the Apsu was destined to disappear in time and its level would significantly drop even over a moderate span of time. This fact would explain several passages in the Sumerian texts where irrigation works play a fundamental role in the economy of the land.
• The dry weather would nicely explain the qualification of Dilmun as a place of especially luminous sky. This quality is not true for most days in Mesopotamia, which is affected very often by haze due to the humidity coming from the Persian Gulf and by dust flown from the western deserts of Arabia Deserta. The same consideration holds for the often proposed identification of Dilmun with Bahrein (notice that an eastern location was considered by already Kramer, who suggested the Indus-Sarasvati basin). It is however reasonable that in postdiluvian times the name Dilmun would be given to some eastern land with which trade was possible by ships. There are indeed indications of contacts by sea with far away lands in the first, second and third millennium BC, see [33], i.e. :
• a Lagash tablet, circa 2500 BC, refers to ships from Dilmun with a cargo of wood
• a document of circa 1800 BC refers to an expedition to get copper in Dilmun
• Sargon of Assyria, end of 8th century BC, receives gifts from the king of Dilmun
It is our hypothesis that the Sumerians, who called themselves black heads (which is exactly the name the Tibetans give to themselves, bod pa, as stated in the books of Alexandra David-Néel) lived in the Apsu-Dilmun region before the Flood, survived the Flood in the Anye Machen region, near Dilmun or part of Dilmun, and then moved to Mesopotamia probably by the way of India; some of them may have remained there (we have in mind the Pani, an ancient Indian population involved in maritime trade; remember that boat technology had to be well developed in the Apsu region!)
• from the Flood story in the epics of Gilgamesh, see poem 48 in B&K, we deduce that Utnapishtim (Ziusudra in older Sumerian stories) leaves his city of Shurrupak, descends to the Apsu and builds there his boat. This is an indication in our scenario that the prediluvian Shurrupak was located at some distance from the basin filling the Takla Makan and Lob Nor depressions, a possible indication that substantial lowering of the Apsu had taken place since the construction of the city. In the Poem of Erra (n. 51 in B&K) we have the intriguing statement that the city of Sippar, where Utnapishtim hid important books in a safe place before the Flood, escaped the destruction by water during the Flood but was otherwise devasted, apparently by earthquake:
of Sippar, ancient city
whose territory the Lord of the Earth
preserved from the Flood,
against the will of Shamash, its lord,
you destroyed both the walls and their foundations
Since the Flood must have implied a uniform rise of the waters of the Apsu, we deduce that Sippar was located higher than Shurrupak from the shoreline of the Apsu, hence it was probably built before (under the hypothesis that cities were preferably built near the shoreline of this sweet water basin); thus, while it could escape being flooded, since the rise of the level of the Apsu was limited, it could not escape the global earthquake that must have characterized the Flood event, to be discussed in a forthcoming paper [25].
We conclude this section with our interpretation of the underworld. We have noted that the Hunza valley was historically almost isolated, especially with respect to the access from the south, since the way to Gilgit goes through a deep, narrow and dangerous chasm. We are led to the hypothesis that the underwold refers geographically exactly to the chasm between Hunza and Gilgit. We can see here indeed the following features of the mythological underwold:
• it is dark, being mostly a very narrow canyon 2 to 3 km deep. For most of the day the light of the sun would not reach the bottom. Since the latitude is about 36º, the sun would never be at the zenith
• going down would not be easy, going up would be more difficult
• access to it would require building trails along very steep mountain sides, very often with stairs indented in the rock, hence the description of the stairway going to the sky. The trail from Gilgit to Hunza was known before construction of the modern road as the “trail of bridges”, due to the many narrow and dangerous rope bridges needed to pass from one side to the other of the steep almost impassable valley walls.
We note that in the Enochian texts, see next section, the underworld is a place of punishment not for man but for the Angels/Watchers, who violated their duties by copulating with human females and providing man with information not be divulged. In the Enochian underworld there is fire, and rivers of fire are seen by Enoch during his trip to this region. Here we notice that the chasm between Hunza and Gilgit lies in the western Karakorum (black rocks) reaches, mainly consisting of granite, a very ancient volcanic rock. We have been unable to ascertain whether the region contains recently deposited volcanic rock. The chasm lies however also south of the Rakaposhi mountain, at which basis hot water sources are found, see Tilman [32]. They indicate a magmatic activity going on not too deeply, a sign of possible surface magmatic events before the Flood.”
It’s pretty hard to follow that last insanely long comment but I’ll try.
How’s about if Eko is Nimrod “A mighty hunter in opposition to god” he is somehow connected to the construction of Babel a tower trying to reach heaven (similar to a church). I really haven’t thought his out much so hopefully that guy doesn’t come and criticize me.
I think I’m going to feature this theory in my blog in my weekly Foreign Theories post. Come by and see.
http://ncjl.wordpress.com/
- Izi
Im not sire if this is helpful but in the old testament Genesis Jacob is issacs son abrahams grandson and the third link (after Abraham and Issac the three most significant people in the OT)to start a new nation. In Gen 28:10-36:43 we learn through Jacob how a strong leader can also be a servant and that wrong actions will always come back to haunt us
there is far more than that about Jacob in Genesis but I Think its best to leave it to u to agree or disagree. see what u think
Also, during Claire’s dream in episode 7 (I think?) in Season 1, when she dreams she is no longer pregnant and she can’t find her baby… She meets Locke in her dream, and he looks up at her and has one eye white and one eye black. He then tells her something to the effect that she has messed everything up for everyone by losing her baby. Not only the whole black/white good/evil thing, but also starting to emphasize the importance of Aaron.
Very interesting theory. Probably the best and most fantastic theory i’ve heard of so far…
I was looking for something else about The Garden of Eden when i noticed the link to this discussion, and i just had to comment about what else i found in this same instance:
The area between the Tigris and the Euphrates, which is commonly agreed to be where Eden was, is also called Al Jizarah- which supposedly translates to mean THE ISLAND.
David Rohl is fairly close in his 1998 book on the location of the Garden in NW most Iran, W of the city of Tabriz. I do not, however, think his location is the correct place, however, as I will try to give some reasons for a different location below. Rohl also located the land of Nod, to which Cain moved after killing Abel. Most all who have researched the location of the Garden of Eden have concentrated on the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, but they are the 3rd and 4th rivers listed by Moses in Genesis. In my opinion, the first two rivers are more important in locating this devine garden, because just as the first two commandments that Moses brought down from the mountain are by far the most important of the 10 commandments, so the first two rivers Moses described are the most important. Then all you need to do is look at a map of the land around Armenia, and you can see the two major rivers to the north are the Kura River and the Aras River. In my opinion, these are the Pishon and Gihon Rivers of Genesis, respectively. Rohl and other authors have already demonstrated that the Aras River is the Gihon River, from historical maps. No one to my knowledge has presented evidence that the Kura R is the Pishon R., however, I think the Garden is located between these rivers from Yerevan ENE a few miles. After Adam sinned, he was forced out of Eden eastward. I think he settled in the Azerbijan town of Agdam, near the confluence of the Kura and Aras Rivers. If you take out the g from Agdam, or make it silent, it becomes Adam. Notice that Rohl’s location of Nod, where Cain went, is only a few miles SE of Agdam. I have a lot of other circumstantial reasons for the locations I give above, but this is a start.
this also explains why the Others can’t have babies, since man was banished from Eden it makes sense that it would not allow them to procreate once they return.
Hi, I think this is exactly it. In fact I just said to myself, “Let me type in ‘lost garden of Eden’ to see if there is anything along these lines that supports what I think”. And there you were. Thank you! The four toed statue had me at a loss (pun maybe intended) however, and your theory concerning it is plausible.
See you are going by the bible, which is one of the newest religious textes.
The eden has been around since the first civ on earth. The sumerians.
The sumerians told of the Anunnaki coming down from space or heaven to “the eden” to create the first hybrid of homodoids and themselves to creat humans. The first prototype was called Adamu.
Love the theory, just apply it to the original gods, and not some false gods invented in the last 2000 years.
check this one out
http://www.4815162342.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3377
Here a few things to consider:
1. JJ Abrams is Jewish and would likely have studied the first 5 books of the Bible called the Pentateuch during childhood and throughout his life.
2. The Garden of Eden may not necessarily be a physical place. It may be a place of divine presence at the time before man fell to original sin.
3. Gen4:8 (Cain & Able = first mortal sin) Ex15:16 (judgment and passage into heaven by God) Lev23:42 (7 days in a booth, may refer to creation and Adam & Eve’s test)
4. The plane: Flight Gen1:8 (creation of sky) Gen1:15 (heaven may view Earth).
5. References have been made to the 7 Deadly sins. This is an obvious explanation for the overuse of a single vice by certain cast members, with matching animal symbols shown throughout.
6. Milton’s “Paradise Lost” portrays the battle between the good and bad angels. Has that already happened? It may be more obvious when we learn of the others’ history more.
Additionally,
In “Lost Untangled” the first words begin as such:
-“In the beginning” (Gen 1:1) are the first words of the message as well as the Bible.
-“A plane broke apart”: described above.
i think this is the nearest possible theory… but i would be surprised if the writers changed it because alot of people have guess it right???? when i first heard of the show i immediately thought of paradise LOST … and then when jacks injury in the very first episode was located near his ribs i was convinced almost straight away, never heard of eden travelling through time tho but hey a bit of artistic licence never hurts anybody right?
My eyes are bleeding after trying to read that huge expose, but hey – everybody’s gotta be somewhere.
My read’s not as biblical, though the creation and beginning business crosses all cultures. here goes:
I keep coming back to the producers’, “Everything necessary to understand IT all is contained in the first episode.” And what’s in the first episodes: the set-up, the confusion, the sorrow and pain and the offering of one to another of help and support.
The Island is An Of-Sorts Eden – magical powers, good and evil co-existing side-by-side w/ the element of choice always present, believers and non-believers side-by-side, bits of what has come before together w/ bits of what is now, together w/ bits of what is to come – Shakespeare’s TEMPEST. It is our perception that linear time is the only time there is, therefore all the conflicts about WHEN something is. And where is it? Where is the island? It’s right where you’re standing; it’s right where you are. Just be quiet long enough and “see” it. The Polynesian proverb of “Standing on a whale fishing for minnows.” The ground swell of being is right there, right in front for those willing to look beyond their own egos (what Locke has learned).
Kate and Sawyer are the Progenitors – Adam and Eve/Isis and Osiris – the skeletons. Both were/are/will be tempted and they have chosen/will choose “gnosis” (knowledge w/o perfection) over “faith” (perfection w/o knowledge). Both are flawed and have done “bad things” (killing, deception, commission of at least several of the deadly sins).
Locke is the Savior – the resurrected one who has his “moments of doubt and overwhelming anger and pain” (Gethsemene). He is the key to the battle between good and evil that will ultimately take place on the island. He “has (had) to die” for the sake of his friends (and those he doesn’t yet know of/about). He is learning how to live out of the Christhood in him – something all the others can do/have done when they stop long enough to consider the “bigger picture”.
Jack is Thomas – the Doubter He needs proof before he believes. When he left the island he fell into despair (booze and pills) until he was convinced “by his friends” (his fellow disciples) to “get back to where he once belonged”. JACK IS US – The one who needs to be convinced before he will “believe”. (And if faith could be proven empirically, what would be the benefit of “believing”?)
Ben is Lucifer/Iblis – The fallen one, the proud one, the deceiver, “I am the spirit which denies” (Mephisto to Faust). Everything he says and does is self-serving – truthful or otherwise. His ego is his agenda. He and Widmore had a “deal” (Mephisto and God in FAUST) in which Widmore had faith in Locke that he would choose wisely (read: “correctly”). Now Ben’s furious that it has not turned out as he expected. “We had a deal!” (Ben and Widmore)
Hurley is The Noble Fool – the conduit for The Grail (the manifestation of the highest human potential). He’s Quixote, Lear’s Fool – everybody has trouble figuring out what’s up w/ him and most dismiss him as “out there”. When all is chaos and nobody can figure out what’s happening or how to handle the confusion, Hurley is able to cut right through the “muck” and get at what’s really happening in front of everyone’s eyes. The fool always plunges into things before he is ready to deal w/ the lesson, gets burned/hurt, but never forgets the “sense” of the lesson or how it made him feel. That’s why he seems the least “concerned” when stuff is crashing down around his and everybody else’s ears; remember the crackers? Everybody’s scared, confused, trying to plan the next move – Hurley’s hungry. He’s the innocent.
Jacob, Abbadon, Alpert, Christian – angels/messangers whose job is to “get people where they need to be.”
Charlie’s John the Baptist/The Herald. He suggests the baptism of Claire and Aaron. He “prepares the way” for the losties to get back where they need to be. Once the way is prepared, it’s up to everybody else to do what needs to be done.
Smokey – the Leveler: that which makes things right for the sake of being able to choose w/o influence.
Widmore – the Creator. It is Widmore who, for 30 years, created and protected an Eden/Atlantis where folks had it “perfect” even if they didn’t know it (perfection w/o awareness). It is only when folks leave the island that they realize the need to “get back” (awareness of the imperfection).
But this is just the “Western” half of the yin and yan.
Sun, Jin and Sayid are the “Eastern” inflection – the other half of what’s really there. All of them “tend” to live immediately, tuned to the present moment, aware of what is present to them and then operating out of that awareness. It’s difficult to deny the sense of overwhelming tragedy and loss when Sun watched the freighter explode – what she thought was Jin’s “death”. When Ben shows her Jin’s ring, she chooses her love for her husband over the fear that Ben could again be lying about it all. Yes, she spends three years plotting to get Widmore, but she ultimately chooses to let him live in favor of finding her husband – giving up on one quest for the sake of the other. Sayid seems to have found his center in that he was working at raising the living standard for those less fortunate or able to do it themselves. I don’t know where he is on the island, though. And Jin is still learning, still trying to snatch the pebble out of the island’s hand. He is even willing to have Sun live out her life thinking he died on the island, rather than have her return w/ Locke to face possible death. “All is sorrow” says the Buddah – loss, loss, loss.
And Desmond is the Wanderer (like the Wanderer in CANTICLE FOR LIEBOWITZ). He’s been through all of it and is still searching for his “one moment of pure bliss” – Faust, if you like. It will be interesting to see if he continues on his quest or if he despairs and throws it all away. And if he is Faust, then Penny is Gretchen or Margarete. He will come to her aid, but may ultimately fail to “save” her if his ego gets in the way.
And the time loops? Just another explanation of how time works – not just in our linear way of understanding it. A larger view, if you like. Remember the little book FLATLAND? The folks in Flatland can only apprehend length and width. Their universe can not “perceive” height. What happens when a three dimensional object suddenly appears in that two dimensional world? All the Flatlanders can “understand” about it is its length and its width. They have no way to connect w/ height so they don’t “see” it. Our perceptions are three dimensional until we “bend” our “way of seeing things” to include time and/or eternity – both of which defy the three dimensional model.
The “war” Widmore references is another battle between good and evil – Ragnarok or Armageddon, perhaps. Since the losties are on the island AGAIN, could we be witnessing Another Coming? Will the forces of light win out over the forces of darkness or not? That’s why Locke has to return – his second coming.
I know there are holes in all of this big enough to drive several tractor trailers through, but I keep coming back to (what for me is a huge question): What’s the payoff? Why is all this happening? What do the losties stand to gain (or lose)?
If this is all about the eternal moment, and if the eternal moment is indeed “timelesss” (since time shuts out eternity), we’re watching a new beginning – a new chance for those like the losties.
The story of the losties is OUR story – everything needed is right in front of us if we would just sit still and see it.
Now let’s hope Jughead doesn’t go off.
After last nights episode, 4/8/09, i am even more convinced that this, Garden of Eden theory holds true. Locke took Ben to the “temple” where he was taken as a boy, and there is a wall around it, protecting it, this is also where smokie resides. Now, i have some to add to the theory above:
Sawyer and Kate may represent Adam and Eve, and the 77 Dharma Initiative(and dharma people), representing the tree,and young, innocent Ben, the apple. Eve was tempted first by the devil in the garden, then gave the apple to adam. Last week Kate took Ben to the “hostiles” to be healed, and sawyer follows. When they get to Richard, they are told that if he takes Ben to be healed, he will never be the same, just the same as when Adam and Eve took the apple, the world, and mankind was never the same, and lost all innocence.
Just some food for thought!!!
WOW!!what an excellent theory!had orginally thought something along the lines of the garden of eden but id started to come away from that..hmmm im gonna re-consider!!!!great read though guys.
At this point in the series, I think there is sufficient evidence to say that the general mythology of the show is that of Milton’s Paradise Lost (traditionally believed to be our greatest account of the Fall of Man). This supports the Garden of Eden theory and also explains some of the missing links. Most notably, that a war is coming ( as stated by Widmore and van guy). This theory could be expanded upon, but look at the title of the show.
Well, I think the real Jacob (the one with the white shirt on the beach) is God. The other one with the black shirt, es the devil. The devil is a shape-shifter, it takes the form of the black smoke, the form of Jack’s father everytime we’ve seen him in the island. In fact, every time we’ve seen someone dead reapearing in the island, it was the devil in disguise. The devil was trapped in the cottage, surrounded by the circle of ashes, until the circle broke and he was set free. All the story is the devil’s manipulation to get a human to take the choice to kill god. Jacob (the real one, not the fake one played by the devil in the cottage) wanted Ben to have faith in him without seeing him, as we all are asked about having faith in God, which we will only meet when we die. . At least, that’s what I think
This is what happens when you having your nose stuck in only one book for your entire life. I’m sure every story looks like one in the bible to you!
I love the Garden of Eden theory, i myself thought of it as well but never put all the pieces together like Mr.Harrison.
The only way to do the show justice is to give it a schocking, extremely clever, revealing finale, and I’m confident that they will deliver. I like most fans of the series have seen every minute of every episode without missing a beat, and if they fudge up the 6th and FINAL season, i will eat a turd.
I agree 100% with this theory. It is even more apparent now that we’ve seen the “Kane/Able” characters introduced in season 5! It is quite literally the Garden of Eden…and I imagine that “Kane and Able” or “Jacob” and his brother will continue to be born and fight and die over and over again as part of their story. I don’t believe it is meant to be biblical perse`, but more of an explanation of how the story arose to begin with in a way. Almost as though the Bible recorded a “Disney” version of the story and “LOST” is revealing the hard-core “Brother’s Grimm” of it all.
I wonder what you would all think if I told you that all that you are thinking and theorizing about is all going on right now. You may not see it if your mind’s eye is blinded by the lights of television and newspaper headlines meant to put you in panic, fear, anxiety, depression, and sorrow, but if you look further in and face whatever fear comes your way, you will be taking your first look through the looking glass. We live in a very beautiful and amazing world, and the battle between order and chaos is a phenomenal story that we are all ultimately part of. I can prove that the first battle of the Book Of Revelation has already begun. Archangel Michael versus the 7 dragon angels as I believe it was said. This event occurred on March 14th, 2008 at 1:44am EST in the form of a man who walks among us but is not one of us, against 7 police officers, single-handedly. The officers were injured much more than the man, the harder they struck him, the worse they injured themselves. They cracked open the first chakra of 7 on this man, the crown chakra, and the true revelation began, as this man could not quite put together the facts and fiction from what he was perceiving, but after the battle it was quite evident and further revelation continued from that point on. His name translates to Archangel Michael the Leader, and he went on to later put the knowledge he had and create a computer program called Jacob’s Ladder which ordered the 26 letters of the English Alphabet with their appropriately matched number, which ranged from 1 to 26. The construction of this Cipher when written on paper represented the Twin Towers, two pillars, each containing thirteen letters of the English Alphabet. The ordering of the numbers on this Cipher was determined by the number Seven, used in a pair (the source of this ciphers number is not to be completely stated at this time, as you shouldn’t give away all of the pretty details in such an epic story in a first post!), and represented the battle of Archangel Michael and Lucifer when Lucifer refused to serve Man as God had ordered him to, as Lucifer only respected God and refused his order. The descent took Michael and Lucifer to the bottom of the first pillar ending at the letter M, the thirteenth letter of the alphabet, which represents Death, as M is the only letter that at the end of saying it, your lips are sealed. The thirteenth card of the Rider tarot (sorry I have not studied all tarot decks and am not sure if they all follow suit) is the card of Death. From that point they have reached Hell, and the only place to go to is back to Heaven, so it is back up, a zigzag pattern taking them from N on the second pillar to Z at the very top of the second pillar upon finishing the ascent. The data so far compiled by this program has been kept very private and the results are very extreme, as it shows the numerical frequencies that match every word in the English language in the context of the way the world is as we know it now. All of our names have a place in this code. Stop blinding yourselves to the ongoing cycle of flood after flood, Atlantis after Atlantis, and Ice Age after Ice Age. We have been repeating a circle for God knows how long trying to find the loop hole where we can use our free will to battle destiny and claim our own victory against whatever flaw has doomed us to run in circles for ages now. Look at the Seven continents that have separated from each other though once were together. Look at the Seven colors of the spectrum and push yourself to the next level…don’t think and feel in color anymore, move on the the UV rays of the mind that cannot be silenced by the Government and Illuminati. Take an aerial view of Washington DC and look at the structure of the roads and see the Satanic Pentagram that shapes it and wonder to yourself what kind of country is this?! While you are doing that, I’ll be behind the wheel of Dharma, driving along refilling my tank and smoking away and moving on to the next part of my story. This is happening everywhere right now and the world for the most part is blind to it. The ones who have a clue are most likely institutionalized and being brainwashed in to thinking they are bipolar or schizophrenic, a very cruel tactic from a greedy corporation of Pharmaceutical Vampires to keep the sinful cashflow in their pockets while they tap the lifeblood of the United States. An empty minded room of talking heads called Democrats and Republicans defending their special interests and uninterested in taking The Stand for their so called country and protecting the people they supposedly serve and they should be doing. Just don’t fall from the Top of Jacob’s Ladder, cause when Jack falls down and breaks his Crown, then Jill comes tumbling after. Mans mistakes hurt women more than they understand, so take that into account
I must say, this theory I am responding to and the posts are absolutely brilliant and shed light on this that I myself have not seen. All I have done is opened my 7 chakras, but their is an infinite amount of ways of seeing this big picture and infinite paradigms to view it through. The beauty is that each and every one of us has our own unique view and strength and we can all prevail if we live together…or we can choose to die alone. At this point IT IS A CHOICE! Sew it on, face the fool!!!!!!!
I love you all!
-Smoke Monster (The Scales of Archangel Michael and The Flaming Sword)
I apologize for not ending my post with this quote as many of you may have heard it and it contains great wisdom, and can probably be found in many different contexts, but it was beautifully placed in the movie Jacob’s Ladder, and this quote rings with surgical precision and affects our lives and can destroy us or give us eternal life if we really look deeply at it: “If you’re frightened of dying, and you’re holding on, you’ll see devils tearing your life away. If you’ve made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.” Face your fear when it comes your way, if you need to, count to 5 and let in all in, then act and free yourself!
~Go Go Go!!!!!!!